Timothy Bradley feels he beat Manny Pacquiao, has received death threats

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The fact that Timothy Bradley feels that he won his controversial bout against Manny Pacquiao shouldn’t be a surprise. No one expects Bradley to go around telling people that he won a fight that he shouldn’t have. So when Bradley joined ESPN Radio Chicago with Waddle and Silvy earlier today to talk about the aftermath of the fight, it’s clear that Bradley really believes that his victory was deserved.

He talks about how his corner also felt he won the fight, as well as how when he heard the third judges’ scorecard, he knew he had won. But everything hasn’t been peachy keen for Bradley after his victory. He’s had to deal with receiving death threats as a result of the win and he discusses that as well.

How he thinks he fared in the fight against Pacquiao:

“I fought my fight. I fought the best I could that night given my injuries but I’m not the one to blame. I’m not the one to blame for the results. The judges saw the fight the way they saw the fight and that is that. They had some really professional judges out there and some really good judges out there and Duane Ford is one of the best judges out there and he picked me. What do you want me to do? I thought the fight was close after the fight. I wasn’t sure if I won it or not. I was like ‘I’m in Vegas and never know how the judges are going to judge it. I know the fight’s really close.’ My corner was telling me ‘you won the fight, you won the fight’ and that was the reason they raised me up after the fight. I felt that I won the fight. I started hearing the actual scoring. The first one said ‘Pacquiao,’ second one was for me, I heard the same 15-13 and I was like ‘oh yeah I’ve got this without a doubt’ and you saw me raise my hands up before the last score and then boom I knew. There were some people sitting ringside that thought I won the fight and a lot of people didn’t feel like I won the fight and it is what it is. I think they were pretty much focused on Pacquiao and didn’t really focus on what I was doing in there. The judges were clued in and focused on the fight and they scored the fight according to what they saw.”

On the death threats that he has been receiving:

“Definitely on Facebook and Twitter, reading people’s comments, e-mails and people are sending me like death threats, telling me to die, telling me to give the belt back, ‘if you’re a man’ and all this hate mail. Just people being really rude like I’m the one to blame. ‘If you’re a real champion and want any respect from me then you’d give the belt back.’ I’m like ‘dude I earned the belt and I’m not giving the belt back.’ Anybody out there that thinks I should give the belt back, the belt is not going back. I deserve the belt. I won the fight regardless of what anyone thinks. The judges thought I won the fight and that is that. I’m not the one to blame here. Don’t be pointing the finger at me, don’t be sending me crazy e-mails and things like that because I really don’t care.”

Like we said earlier, it’s not surprising that Bradley is now saying he felt he won the fight. But we all know this isn’t going away anytime time soon. Bradley may have to prove it again in the ring before people even think about considering that he really beat Pacquiao that night.

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Comments

  1. John Wilkinson says:

    Before this match, & before the Bute-Froch match I had the Top Six lb4lb at: 1)Pacquiao 2)Mayweather 3)Ward 4) Sergio Martinez 5)Lucian Bute 6)Tim Bradley -Now- -I do not have it SET, yet; neither have I SEEN the fight completely (waiting) -Probably- gonna take on a conatation along lines of 1)Mayweather 2)Andre Ward 3)Sergio 4)Pacquiao 5)Bradley -Have Nathan Cleverly- as the worlds no. 1 -protege- ‘super-star’ out-side lb4lb. W/ George Groves -close second- The top 5 is –unofficial– a.t.t. but what I’m leaning into. ‘UWBCAFO-I’ – John Wilkinson (sec.-gen)

    • I like you top 5 p4p. I think Ward is gonna push for #1.

    • mattyboy says:

      Ridiculous top 5. Not mentioned… Gamboa… CANELO–who IS the best pound for pound fighter in the world, which will be proven shortly. Rigendo-howeveyouspellhisname– also is nowhere near the top? Sergio Martinez is the most overrated boxer, besides Timothy Bradley. Andre Ward and Canelo are the top two, followed by Mayweather, Pacquaio, and rounding it out, the other non-mentioned fighter, Nonito Donaire.

      However, pound for pound lists are idiotic and take away from the importance of the belts in each weight class. Different styles and techniques are needed at different weight classes. For instance, a heavy puncher at a lighter weight class means much less than it does in a heavier weight class, this is due to physics and is why, generally speaking, there are more knock-outs at heavier weight classes.

    • Timothy Bradley was really on cloud nine believing he won. I’d felt the same way if I’m in his place but I’d be feeling guilt and dissatisfied with the outcome. What he can do is challenge Pacquiao for a rematch and not him saying he would give Pacquiao a re-match.
      How can he offer a rematch when he’s the clear loser. It will hurt the boxing world if Pacquiao decides to just quit, after all, he could say you did me injustice and this is what you get. I really admire Pacman’s character. Character is th most important thing in a man…look at where Mayweather is now?

  2. M. Sheldon says:

    Terrible write up!

    I do not really get the feeling that he is receiving death threats, just people making ignorant remarks pertaining to the fight and how they perceive who the winner was.

  3. Check this link: pcstorage.org, you’ll like what it has to say.

  4. why people like mma better, boxing is corrupt

    • yeah, but fighter’s like boxing and people do too! How much money did Bradley make in this fight? How much does the top MMA fighter make in a year?

      This scoring was based on liking the aggressor. Bradley was the agressor. The tables were turned on Pac-man who was the aggressor against Marquez, eventhough, Marquez landed the cleaner punches, the fight was given to pac-man.

      I think Manny won the fight, just like I think Marquez won the last fight against him!

  5. larry Kemp says:

    Most everyone knows that sport of boxing is a ridden with fixed fights.
    This was no different. Nothing more than hype for the next match and an equal pay off to the corrupt judges..
    Your fighting skills compared to Manny P are mediocre at best.
    You lost the fight on every card if the truth had been reported..
    It’s these types of decisions that cause me to turn off when it comes to boxing.
    However, your sport will alway endure because men love competition and thats what a rigged card always produces…
    Now Mr. Bradley, you are on similar level as Casey Anthony..
    You are both living in a delusional world, having convinced yourself of the Lie..
    Live in it while you can Bradley… The truth always wins out.. and retribution is a guarantee.
    Good luck trying to enjoy your money or fame.. I say it will have very short shelf life for you.
    You’ll probably be broke in 10 years.

  6. If you’re pissed about the decision, act on it. Boycott boxing, especially the “rematch.” If the fight was fixed to allow a rematch to be rescheduled to bring in more money, don’t support the scam by paying to view the rematch. If nobody shows up to the fight, they learn their lesson.

    • Well put. I agree. Boycott this crap and then they will see that they can’t do these things to the boxing fans without dealing with some b.s. of their own. It is sad to see how far down the drain boxing has gone. Yes I am an MMA fan now, but at one time I loved boxing. Those days are long gone now

  7. John T. Best says:

    Tim Bradley won the fight, Pacquiao vs. Bradley. Who said so? The experienced experts who were given the task to score the fight said so! Boxing score is not by popular opinion but by the round-by-round scores of the judges and the officiating referee. So, people please give the kid his well earned due. He is the champ. He earned it in the ring toe-to-toe with Pacquiao. Never was he a coward. He went in and won it like a man; give him a break!

    In the year 2000, the president of the United States of America was chosen in a highly controversial election but the authoratative body in resolving the final outcome, the Supreme Court of the United States of America, said that George W. Bush won over Albert Gore, Jr and so Bush was inaugurated as president and everyone accepted Mr. Bush as president of the US and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces – case closed!!

    • Gabriel says:

      Put down the bath salts dude; you’re as delusional as Bradley is.

    • DIAMOND57 says:

      You really don’t sound as if you know what you’re talking about with that crap about our former president, keep it on the point boxing,boxing and more boxing. Now let’s go to it. I scored the fight round for round, it was not even close by a wide margin. To tell the truth we all know that this is not the fault of Bradley, but in his heart he knows that he is a fake champ. This is what’s really going on with fight fans. Look at him after the fight, instant guilt. He could not even give Kellerman a direct answere. He was so jacked up that he had to say that he would look at the fight later, no real jumping around and trash talking. It’s the fault of those two judges that he is in this position. Even you know the real truth.

      • “this is not the fault of Bradley, but in his heart he knows that he is a fake champ.” True. But what I take issue with is how, Bradley is now flip-flopping and all of a sudden is acting like he deserves the belt and the win.
        Right after the decision in his favor he still said he’d have to look at the fight again to see if he won. But now, he’s claiming that (even before the decision) he knew he won but just wanted confirmation from the judges. That’s bs because as I already mentioned: even AFTER the judges ruled in his favor, he said he’d have to look at the fight to see IF he won. So, even AFTER he supposedly got their “confirmation ” that he won, he STILL wasn’t sure if he won and said he’d have to look at the fight again.

        Also, I noticed this point:
        In this article, Bradley claims that he earned and thus, deserved the decision. But then he says that the decision wasn’t HIS fault….. Hmmmmm? Well, if he really did deserve the win and therefore the decision, (the judges ruling in his favor) WOULD be is “fault” wouldn’t it? You see? He put his foot in his mouth again. Any fighter who feels that he deserved the decision would not say that the decsion WASN’T his fault.

        It’s so obviously that he lost the fight and it’s so obviously that now he’s trying to bs all of us into believing that he really feels that he earned the win..

        • Mattyboy says:

          He, Bradley, has been a walking contradiction since being interviewed post-fight. He lost, knows it, and won’t give the belt back, I would assume, because of pressures being applied from people outside of this camp.

          • Just look at his most surprised face of him and esp his corner.
            This tells it all. He didn’t lift his arm up, his trainer quickly lifted it up for him.

        • daboxing fan says:

          The fish is always caught in the mouth :)

      • You aren’t a paid professional, which is one of the many reasons your call on the fight is irrelevent. The judges assigned to the fight are seasoned professionals who did their jobs. The judges were’nt assigned to adjudicate. a popularity match or to be politically correct in the eyes of Pacman fans.

        Bradley beat Manny; deal with it and move on. Stop crying like sissies

        • Dude, Professionals made mistake too.. and the professionals you were reffering are damn too old to fulfill job! people are angry because no one deserve a shitty judging specially from the so called veteran/professional. We earn the money that we pay to get fair entertainment. I dont blame Bradley or PacMan it’s clear that this is not their mistake. Bradley should keep the damn belt as long as he wants. its the commission who made the mistake and it up to them to fix it.

          “Bradley beat Manny; deal with it and move on. Stop crying like sissies”

          No! Bradley got awarded the Belt but he did not beat Pacman…
          also you cannot say that it is only on the eyes of Pac fans, actually Mayweather Sr. said that he thinks Pac won the fight.

          so there you go! even the most Pac hater said the Pac won so I guess that enough for you to shut up!

    • suck it

    • bradley won the fight, lmao..you must be a racist. manny won 8 or 9 rounds. how does bradley win the fight winning 3 or 4 rounds again? by hugging all night like he did

  8. Gabriel says:

    Bradley is even more of a punk than I initially thought. After looking terrible against Manny on June 9th and after admitting to Bob Arum that ‘although he tried, he just couldnt beat Manny’ and after saying that he’d ‘have to see the video of the fight to see IF he really won’ (which he said AFTER the judges already decided in his favor) now he’s claiming that he felt that he won the fight all along. PLEASE! Right now, he’s just trying to look tougher than he really is. I don’t care what those corrupt judges say — Bradley lost that fight. It wasn’t even close. The whole world saw it. And because of that blatantly bs decision, I’m never ordering another PPV event again. Hopefully, many others will likewise, no longer purchase PPV events.

    • ringside doc guido,
      DO NOT ORDER PPV……..but you order it anyway just before the fight….JUST SAY NO!
      There was once a boxer who thought he won a fight….but when the people said he didn’t
      he began to cry.

  9. Stop it Pac-man fans and the threats He lost fight before that,Manny did not look good in the fight anyway.Marquz fans didn’t threaten Manny, stop crying he lost and don’t need a rematch either its going be same results but now no one scared of Manny now.He better man up and fight Floyd before he lose another fight. Manny WHO…Mayweather is the man till he get a loss.Stop Fooling Yourself

    • Well said Jeffrey!!! People need to remember the judges are sitting ringside….And were sitting in our living room. We dont have the better view than the judges.. It is what it is. I too was shock to see that Bradley won…. But oh well.Pac-man you shouldve accepted Mayweathers challenge first!!!!

      • Drew
        You’re obviously not too bright. People watching at home have the benefit of multiple camera angles at all times aswell as instant replays whereas, each judge only has the one angle of the ring directly in front of them. So if the fight’s backs are to a particular judge, that judge may not see landed shots, etc. Additionally, all it takes is for a judge to look down at his score card for a second or to glance over at some loud person in the audience briefly to miss alot of the action in the ring.

        The point is that we at home are better able to see more of what is actually going on in a fight than three bias, ringside judges.

      • Drew,
        Oh, btw, you’ve got it wrong. It was Mayweather who’s been making excuses and dodging Pacquiao — not the other way around.

        • No doubt Charles. I don’t even watch fake boxing but it is a well known fact that gayweather is chicken to fight manny. Gayweather even beat up his wife and went to jail to avoid fighting him. Manny has called gayweather out numerous times and everytime, gayweather has an excuse. I don’t know what these clowns are thinking that say Paq doesn’t want to fight him. Must be Oblamer voters.

    • You smoking crack bro! Did you watch the fight? Bradley left in a wheel chair! Enough said you freakin idiot! And to all you Bradley “N#T SUCKER” stop using bath salt you jackasses! Common sense isn’t so common anymore with a bunch of morons! Its clear Manny won the fight. Stop trying to suck Bradley n#ts!

    • Florence Fairweather can’t handle drinking tap water in jail.
      What a tough guy.
      Pac-Man grew up in the Philippines and drank pond water.

      Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan handled jail far better than that woman beater “Money” Fairweather, who thought he could buy his way out.

      Pac-Man would destroy him, but Florence will NEVER ink a contract to fight the greatest PnP fighter in Boxing and will continue to come up with a litany of excuses and will NEVER step into the ring with PM as he will be destroyed.

      Florence is a little, whiny beech.

      • Charles says:

        PHP87

        Well said! Gayweather has been making excuses and ducking Manny for years and now he’s crying like a biotch in jail.

    • you are soo gay i hope u get beat up on the streets

    • I think you have to read the facts gayweather is the one with million excuses pacman keep saying yes on his demand but one after another excuse…… about Bradley he won in his dreams but he know he felt the pacmans power …. so lets just leave it like that. Manny don’t care Its a test from God and his taking it pretty Good.God knows the truth and he got a better plan

  10. TIM PLS GIVE THE BELT BACK, THE JUDGES MISTAKES ARE NOT YOURS, VALUE
    YOUR HONOR, IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF ALL THE HARDSHIPS IN
    GETTING WHERE YOU ARE TODAY. THERE IS STILL TIME, DONT LISTEN TO YOUR
    DIE HARD FANS, THEY ARE NOT AFTER YOUR REAL WELFARE. YOU WILL BE THE
    GREATEST BOXER IN TIME. I WILL INCLUDE YOU IN MY PRAYERS, THAT YOU WILL
    OVERCOME ALL THIS TRIALS.

    • You pacman fans are ridiculous whiners. You act like the guy was undefeated. So he now has 4or 5 losses plus a few ties. It’s not like the guy was undefeated or anything. In fact he lost his last fight to Marquez and was given the decision. Where were your cries for Manny to acknowledge the obvious. It seems manny give some people alittle self repect they never had on their own, so when he loses they lose as well.

      Get a life losers !

  11. steve robins says:

    This is another in a long line of BLACK EYES for boxing. This is even worse than the Roy Jones robbery in the 1988 Olympics in Korea. This is worse than Phillip Phillips becoming this years American Idol when he didn’t even deserve to be in the top 10. This is why people are now more interested in MMA.

    • Steve,
      Would you mind adding the Lennox Lewis/Holyfield match to that list of black eyes for boxing. I have never ordered a boxing ppv or watched a boxing match after that fiasco. It was obvious it was rigged way back then and doesn’t look like it will change anytime soon. Thank goodness for MMA.

  12. People lost money on the fight and are taking out their frustration and anger, but on the wrong person.

    The egregious behavior was by the 70 year old and older “judges” who obviously are no longer capable of judging a fight.

    Also, “live” scoring should be mandatory in Boxing.

    The judges should display their scores, round by round, between rounds.

    Otherwise, they can just pull a number out of their azz at the end of a fight without any accountability.

    Get rid of these old, blind judges and display scoring between rounds.

    Until then, I’m not watching another fight, free or not as I can pull some PPV in on C-Band.

  13. Billie Jefferson says:

    This is ridiculous. Bradley shouldn’t be getting death threats. But honestly pacman should have won. The scores obviously proved that pacman won. He had way more punches then bradley did. The judges made a mistake. But they are the judges and they said what they said. So fighting about it on here isn’t going to get us anywhere. Theres nothing we can do about it.

    • Vote with your wallet.
      Email TopRank and every main promoter as well as the WBO, WBC, etc…and tell them you will never buy another PPV event until they implement “live” scoring and get rid of dinosaurs like Duane Ford and other judges.

  14. The Revenues, Live Gate and PPV numbers speak the truth. MMA hasn’t come close to surpassing Boxing. Keep believing the Dana White hype Fanboys! The only time an MMA event has gotten big publicity was when it was headlined by a guy best known for being in WWE.

  15. @larryKemp Comparing Bradley to a murderer? Wow. Who’s the one thats dilusional? You’re sad, pathetic, and just downright sick. You have my pity….

    That being said this is nothing new in boxing. It’s very rare it happens to a money maker like Manny. That’s probably the only shocking thing. But this isn’t the first time there’s been a bad decision. Martinez-Cintron heck tske your pick of any of Mannys 3 fights with Marquez. Bad decisions happen in a corrupt sport like boxing.

    And to the people making death threats: Get a life you pathetic losers. Try doing something with your lives instead of being utter failures.

  16. ROADDOG says:

    I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE JOKES.PAC-MAN IS A JOKE.IF HE WANTED TO FIGTH FLOYD HE WOULD HAVE. JUST STOP DOPING TAKE A PISS TEST AND FIGHT LIKE A MAN.BRADLEY WHIPPED HIM ASS AND THAT IS HOW IT IS. HE IS THE ONE WITH THE TITLE.LIKE IT OR NOT.

  17. you guys are all fools Manny cant handle Mayweater and thats that Manny backed out not Mayweather take the drug test unless youre doping hmmmm anyway Bradley won and thats that what the judges say is the answer ask yourself why the one judge who scored the fight for Pac Man even had the fight close ummm maybe because it was alot closer than you wanna believe. Bradley was the aggressor he wasnt afraid and he held his ground the rematch will take place and if Manny cant KO him then he wont win…

  18. Bradley lost the fight plain and simple. Bob Arum saved me mega bucks. I have not bought a pay for view since the Tyson ear bitting fight with Evander until last Saurday. This finishes my buying pay for views forever! I know scoring a fight is subjective, but these judges should be banned from the sport. Speaking of judges, here comes the Olympics and ask Roy Jones Jr. what to expct. Death threats, give me a break! Boycott!!

  19. bill miner says:

    Yes , ittakes an ignorant person to make death threats . NO Tim , you did not win the fight , it was not even close . This is probably why you wre receiving hatemail etc . I do agree with those who believe you should give the belt back. I mean 99 percent of the people who watched knew you lost big time . You wont give it back because you think you will get another big pay day . Manny doesnt need you to prove anything . We all know he kicked your behind . But , one other thing . You would be better off to just keep your mouth shut about it because you too , deep down , without a doubt , KNOW THAT IT WAS NOT EVEN CLOSE . You gave it everything , and I respect that , but come on tim , haha , you clearly lost , it was not close . I gave you 2 rounds and 1 of them could have been even . Ivr been watching boxing for 45 years , and no one could ever convince me you won . Be a man , show some humility as well , or no one will ever like you or be your fan.

  20. People say Floyd is ducking Manny. If Manny wants this fight then….Mannny can get the fight. Just give the blood sample. Manny doesn’t want any. Bradley took him to the distance. People threaten this man with death threats all day. Manny got beat. Manny can’t dictate anything anymore. He needs to take care of home ie..Marriage…Mayweather would destroy him. Say what you want….Mayweather is the champ and Manny isn’t…CASE CLOSED

  21. ROADDOG says:

    THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER FIGHT THE JUDGES HAVE ROBBED A FIGHTER.WHY IS THIS FIGHT SO DAMN DIFFERENT? IS IT BECAUSE EVERYONE WANT THE MAYWEATHER FIGHT THAT MANNY DO NOT WANT.SINCE MANNY DO NOT WANT TO DO A BLOOD TEST TO MAKE THE FIGHT HAPPEN THEN GIVETHE FIGHT TO BRADLEY.HE WILL GIVE A BLOODTEST.HE IS THE CHAMP NOW.

    • gay weather says:

      Bradleys next fight and Life depends on Manny.Since Manny is the clear winner as seen by all people around the world including respectable sports writers and analyst.Manny doesnt need a rematch and he doesnt need Bradley.Marquez is the more real and has alot of fan base.Mayweather could not fight this year his health is in joupardy now while in prison he might come out unfit for boxing.

  22. Money speaks louder! It’s not the fault of Bradley, crystal clear that it’s the judges fault. They should look and investigate on the judges decision because this will affect the credibility of the boxing world. People will no longer buy PPV in that matter.

  23. I believe Bradley did not win the fight. Having escaped the knockout punch of Pacquiao does not make Bradley the victor. That is why, a rematch is in order and this time, it won’t go the length. Pacquiao is itching for a knockout…if that’s the only way to win in the eyes of these judges.

  24. Bradley bearly beat Deavon Alexander in St.Louis and now he is the new fake a$$ Champion of the new fake world he is now leaving in. He only won because he likes to head butt boxers.Manny won the fight! 11 rounds to 1 – Bradley really sucks just like Gayweather and they dont have a clue about being a great champ like Manny….
    Boycott-Boxing pay per view

  25. Hawker1 says:

    Whatever happened to the once hot agenda item of judges displaying their scorecards after each round? I remember when that was supposed to happen, but it suddenly went away.

  26. first of all this landed punch thing is out of context manny landed most of those in 4 middle rounds. next bradley didnt get hurt although he got hit with some nice shots. for a man that was so beat up he sure to it to manny the last 4 rounds. i had the fight 7-5 manny not the runaway tyhe press was talking about. he was the aggresser maybe thats what won him the fight he survive the middle rounds and finished strong while manny fadded thats why marquez lost because he didnt fight the last 3 rounds. just some food for thought

  27. you will never be a big money maker Bradley….. I thought you are a tough contender for Manny, you prove me wrong. You look tough and strong physically however, you never have a chance of these little Giant. You are a lame duckling…………shame, shame, shame………….

  28. Its all about the money…..Can you imagine what the payday will be on the rematch. Come on people….Its all a BIG BUSINESS……

  29. I am really tired of talking about this but now that Bradley actually thinks he won it, I will say it again. I have boxed as a amature and have a MMA gym now. I have watched the fight 4 times. The first time I watched it I gave Bradley 2 rounds. The last time I watched it with no sound. This time I did give Bradley 3 rounds (generously). The fact is Bradley was backing up the whole fight. Any idiot that follows Bradley know he likes to bang it out. So, without being a damn genius, you have to figure that he did not want to get hit by Manny. I never once saw any of his punches have any affect on manny. The judges are shit. You should not even be able to be a judge in boxing or MMA unless you have at least competed as an amature. I try not to let my fights go to the judges for that very reason. If bradley fights Manny in November he will not make it past the 5 round. So if u live in vegas, u should put a few dimes on that. He will be ko’d. I am not sexist either but to have a female judging any type of combat sport is just plain ridiculous!!!!

  30. The fans crack me up. We all know that Tim lost to Pac no doubt, but why give the man death threats? Everyone has a right to their own opinion. No ones gonna say I got beat. Its boxers pride folks. If you want to blame someone then blame these four. 1) the Judges 2) Pac mans corner 3) Pac man 4) Bob Arum.
    1). what was the judges looking that night. Pac landed more power shots and clean blows
    2) telling the corner to knock this dude out. Go for the knock out don’t put this fight in the judges hands.
    3) He has become a little soft or less aggressive in knocking someone out. Religion has caused him to be more soft towards others in life. He has to knock his oponent out in order to win nowdays.
    4) crooked Bob Arum. This fight is a plot. It gets Bob Arum more money in the long run. A rematch with Tim and others to come. Bob knows if Pac looses to Money, then his money wont be there anymore with Pac.
    So folks, don’t threat Tim for believing he won. Blame the judges, Pac’s corner and Pac for not knocking this dude out.

  31. CharlieM says:

    Why not go with four judges,one at each side of the ring, and then give the ref the deciding vote in the event of a draw?

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